spelling accuracy

  • Moderator

    Привет всем,
    My remark is especially for russian,

    I have seen Russians who write approximately : i.e. a for o… And I, as a French, don't ought to do better than them ! Why isn't it an option to allow approximation if the learner is agree ? I'm fed up with errors of a а for a я - a и for a e and so on that say that I don't know the word.
    It might be interesting to ask the learner for accuracy, but we should be allowed to choose. For example, it could be a cursor that permit to be lazy on spelling of a letter for the x first presentations.

  • works@Lingvist

    @dev_temp it understands my German quite well! 🤔
    (And I use it profusely)

  • It maybe Siri's fault or maybe there is a space for an improvement.

    @Marina, how well does Siri understand your Russian?

  • Moderator

    In my native language, french, Siri makes a lot of errors too. It doesn't analyse well some grammatical obvious schemes. 🙂

  • works@Lingvist

    Ahah, got it! I'd hate to suspect that but it may not be the issue of poor technology. 🤐

    Nothing to do with speech recognition, but perhaps this could be a useful extra resource for your Russian course?

  • Moderator

    @Marina Yeees, that's it ! I've called it Siri, but perhaps it's a wrong denomination indeed. And it not recognise a single word of my cut-with-a-knife accent in russian ! But… когда я повтаряю, оно иногда понимает.

  • works@Lingvist

    Hey guys, great discussion and spot on, too!

    We are currently working on alternative input solutions, however, for iOS you can already use the built-in functionality. It recognises individual words (doesn't require context), at least for my EN>DE course. @MacDamien, is it the same thing you've been using?

  • Moderator

    Yes, an alternative mode is the best option to consider. Indeed I use such a mode with siri on iOS but it's not flowless because Siri needs a sentence to recognize the word. If this mode is integrated to lingvist, it should allow the recognition of the word in his near environment, I participated to the test of the vocal system recently and it sucked, he didn't recognize my beautiful accent ! ^^
    Thanx for the link, I visited it yet.

  • Some elements of that kind already exist in the courses, for instance German course is forgiving to lower-casing the nouns and omitting umlauts. Though, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, well so they say. I might support more forgiveness for simple typos as I mistype a lot and mostly by accident, but I don't like the idea of "an alternative simplified grammar". I hope the Lingvist eventually to evolve into something bigger than a flashcard SRS and offer some modes that don't require typing, that would allow a learner to focus on other aspects of a target language. Would you consider that hypothetical alternative mode as a compromise solution to the problem you have risen?

    P.S. there is another topic that went down to the error tolerance discussion, that you might give you some additional arguments to consider.

  • Moderator

    I'm conscious that precise spelling is, peculiarly for russian, eventually essential to know radicals to progress. It's not a way to take bad habits I'm looking for, it's a way to not focus too much on spelling which might divert us from progress in language learning. And ok, the machine have to correct and indicate strongly the errors to us, but maybe the weight of such a typo error could be decreased.
    I have an autocorrective brain when I read foreigner writing french, I hope russian people will do the same with my олбансций яазык.

  • And yes, I know that speaking is often more important and rewarding during second language acquisition, though I don't think it's a valid excuse to learn how to spell words the wrong way. If speaking and listening are the top priorities, I think it's better just use the different approach, that doesn't require to spell the words.

  • I strongly disagree. Replacing some letters with the others is a written form is not considered as an option in Russian language (except ё/е case). I can see two options for a Russian-speaker to mix "а" and "о" it was either a form or and Internet cacographical dialect called "падонкаффский язык" aka. "олбанский язык" or it was and extremely low educated Russian (like kindergarten spelling level). Also, there are lots of people from ex. Soviet Union countries that know Russian to some extent, but their ability to write and speak in Russian may significantly very depending on the country and educational background. In my opinion, a typical language learner should learn the official spelling and pronunciation first and my explore the variations and deviations later, after mastering the fundamental part. I don't see a reason for a typical learner to deliberately mess their spelling by getting used to incorrect forms. It's far more difficult to fix that later, than to get it right from the beginning. I'm not a amused by Russian spelling either, but in my opinion it's far less difficult than English or French spelling, And I don't know any French course that would offer me a possibility to type words as I hear them (can you name any? 'cause the crazy spelling is my strongest argument against attempting to learn French basics).

    P.S. as you progress in Russian, it will get easier for you to check that а/о thing, They are easily confused unless you can find a word where that vowel is stressed. Then its clear which one you should write. For instance:
    голова́ (is pronounced like "галава́" with the stress on the last vowel ), but plural form has the stress shifted, i.e. го́ловы, that makes it clear that you have to write о in the first syllable. And to check the middle one, we may use diminutive form голо́вушка. It might be tricky at the beginning, but you'll get used to it.

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